double bevel dovetail

[superdav]

Hey guys i am looking to learn how to layout double bevel dovetails, like in a grain hopper, casket or on an old toolbox. Its a dovetail on a compound miter. I can find very little online. I have seen Robby Pedersen and Roy Underhill show some examples.

[RenaissanceWW]

I have only done this once and it is a brain bender. I found some good tutorials in print but you're right I couldn't see much step by step stuff online. This is only my list of things to film one day, but I'm frankly not good enough at it yet to demonstrate. I do remember that I first had to mill my boards as if I were to butt join them together. You knife in your baseline as usual and from there it is a little easier to see what angle you need to cut the tails and pins. I wish I could be more specific but as I said I have only tried it once. Charles Hayward's "Woodwork Joints" has a pretty good chapter on this that I could scan and send you if you like. Email me at shannon@renaissancewoodworker.com and if you are interested.

[Bob Rozaieski]

I think this one of those things that is easier to do than it is to think about. The problem is that you have a bunch of compound angles. If you try to do the math, it will make your head spin. At least it does for me. I don't want to bother with math when I'm woodworking (do enough as part of my day job).

Just cut your splay angles first. Basically, figure out your lean on the sides and ends. Then set a couple of bevel gauges to those angles. Cut the 4 boards like you are just doing a simple butt joint as Shannon mentions. Then layout your dovetails like normal with bevel gauges and marking gauge. Just try not to think about the numbers. It's easier that way.

[Pete Bennett]

Apart from allowing for a half tail top and bottom I'm not really sure if there is a specific method to calculate angles, sizes etc. It's much better to do as Bob and Shannon say.

If you've got say an 8" side and think 3/4" tails look good, set out a 3/8" tail top and bottom, divide the remainder by 10 and go for it. If you usually use a 1 in 7 or 1 in 9 degree of slope set a bevel gauge to this and mark them out as normal. The slope of your sides will determine the rest. It isn't a common joint, I've done it a few times but, not for years. I think it's more of settling for the best looking combination of angles and dovetail size. Good proportion is usually a visual thing and can mean a lot of things to a lot of different people, all of 'em different.

What I say may be crap but, it's worked in the past without complaint from the client, and that's what I strive for.

Pete

[TonyV]

Didn't Norm make a tray with compound mitered corners that had dovetails in one of the later episodes of NYW?

[superdav]

Thanks guys That does help a lot.

And if Norm did it what kind of jig did he use. That alone could boggle your mind.

[reforzar]

Season 9 Episode 7: Serving Trays

[Eli]

Steve Brown wrote a great article in Fine Woodworking called "Compound Angles without Math." Basically, you make a block that represents the angled box you are trying to make. It has all of the compound angles on it. You then use the block to setup the saw and mitre gauge.

If you are getting Rough Cut in your area, episode 9 is a compound angled tray. I don't see any clips on the site yet.

Once you get through the angles, the dovetails aren't so bad. You just have to remember that your square doesn't do you any good anymore. It is replaced by bevel gauges. Also, layout the dovetails relative to the grain of the board, not the end. I'll try to throw together some photos if you'd like.

Eli

[reforzar]

Here are a few pics hope that helps...

First is the spring joint to hold the piece in place. Second you notice it's a compound angle cut on a compound angle edge. Third you notice he put the jig into the other miter slot. Lemme know if you have any questions, I've got the full episode.

[superdav]

Steve Brown wrote a great article in Fine Woodworking called "Compound Angles without Math." Basically, you make a block that represents the angled box you are trying to make. It has all of the compound angles on it. You then use the block to setup the saw and mitre gauge.

If you are getting Rough Cut in your area, episode 9 is a compound angled tray. I don't see any clips on the site yet.

Once you get through the angles, the dovetails aren't so bad. You just have to remember that your square doesn't do you any good anymore. It is replaced by bevel gauges. Also, layout the dovetails relative to the grain of the board, not the end. I'll try to throw together some photos if you'd like.

Eli

i would like to see some pics this is all i could find

[Eli]

Ok. Let's see if I can make this make sense. I'll give a little explanation first, then go with the pictures.

I'll start once you've established the butt joint. I can go over that, too, but I'd like to ask permission from Steve. It's his technique that I use.

So, the main trickiness with the compound angled dovetails is that we take a lot of things for granted with normal dovetails. I think of pins being perpendicular to the end, but really, they're parallel to the edge. The same thing occurs with the shoulders, I check them for square to the face, really they're parallel to the end. When all of the angles are 90º, it's all the same. With compound angles, the distinction matters. Beyond just checking shoulders and cheeks, this also manifests in the layout. The dovetail angles should be thought of relative to the edges of the board, parallel with the grain, NOT perpendicular to the shoulder.

Doh. My pictures are too large. I have to go play frisbee. But I'll reduce them and finish up this post when I return.

Eli

P.S. I just cut them by hand. The principles apply no matter how you cut them.

[Onboard]

Hey guys i am looking to learn how to layout double bevel dovetails, like in a grain hopper, casket or on an old toolbox. Its a dovetail on a compound miter. I can find very little online. I have seen Robby Pedersen and Roy Underhill show some examples.

By now you may have already completed your “double bevel dovetail”. However, I thought I would throw in some links that you may or may not have seen in your searches.

Here’s the link for “Compound Angles without Math”. Requires Fine Woodworking online membership.

This is about doing compound angle dovetails with a Leigh dovetail jig. May have some useful information even if you don’t have a Leigh dovetail jig. Click the full page icon for easier reading.

Tage Frid Teaches Woodworking - Chapter 5 page 78. This link will take you to the beginning of the section on doing a hand dovetails with a miter. You’ll probably want to go full screen on this as well.

I’m not sure if this is helpful, but it will allow the calculation of compound angles. Just plug in the numbers.

[Don Z.]

The March/April 2005 (number 183) of WoodenBoat magazine has a great article on exactly this. In the article, with step by step pictures, they make a wooden tool carrier.

You can download a copy for $3.50here:

[kesac]

Hey guys i am looking to learn how to layout double bevel dovetails, like in a grain hopper, casket or on an old toolbox. Its a dovetail on a compound miter. I can find very little online. I have seen Robby Pedersen and Roy Underhill show some examples.

Look at this guys tutorials. http://www.handcutdovetails.com/angled-dovetails.asp

This is a guy named Dale Horst. See if that will help you.

[FC27*]

I just ordered Dale Horst's set of 5 tutorials. The website is pretty lean on information. he sold me on the basis of the shop friendly format.

[nateswoodworks]

I just did one about a month ago, other than just diving in and doing it the only thing I can say that helped was after I got the splay angle figured out was to make a paring block to help keep the angle perfect when chiseling. I just took a scrap of wood and cut a miter in it to match the splay angle and a bevel to match the actual dovetail shoulder angle, after I did that it made things a lot easier. The great thing is after you do this regular dovetails will be a cinch!!

Nate

[superdav]

I think I will get Dale's instructions. I have just found the most unbelievable piece of walnut that has the most figure I have ever seen. In of all places an antique shop buried in a corner. I asked the guy what do you want for it. He scratched his head and said " 20 bucks", I didn't even stutter and replied "done". I had just bought 8 board feet of ribbon sapele and wanted to do a bench with a lid. I would have liked to do the base with double bevel dovetails. But I have not practiced yet.

[Guest Trace]

I have a bunch of books written by some very knowledgeable woodworkers showing joinery techniques. All show a lot of pictures and have a lot of text. But, after reading and studying the photos, I find it a help to draw the joint on a large piece of paper to REALLY get the feel of the technique. I read a book about the Wright brothers that quoted Wilber saying, "If you get it right on paper, it will work". Good luck.

[superdav]

i would like to see some pics this is all i could find

i found the text to the pic

A full size drawing is necessary from which the true length (A) and true width ( can be obtained, see previous post; also the edge bevel in the thickness of each piece shown by the arrowed lines ©. All the bevels are marked and worked holdingthe bevel gauge at right angles to the edges of the sloping ends and not parallel with the sides.

A marking gauge cannot be used for setting out the dovetails; their depths, etc must be marked with pencil and adjustable bevel. The dovetails are cut to slope equally either side of lines drawn parallel with the top and bottom edge of the tail board, see elevation, top left in image. The sawn edges of the matching pins are, of course, parallel with the edges of the board from which they are cut.

In cutting the dovetails described above the piece of wood should be canted to bring the cuts vertical, see right hand drawing. Marking the pins by drawing the saw point through the tail kerfs is difficult owing to the slope. Therefore it is better to chop out the dovetails and mark round them on to the pin piece with an awl.

[superdav]

i found a guy who uses his cutoffs for layout. Almost idiot proof.

pics on canted dovetails

[superdav]

Chad Stanton Has shown a simple method for layout over at you tube.

I want to thank everyone for helping me on this quest. All of you are so king in your time and effort. THANK YOU

[superdav]

I have finally done it. I want to thank everyone for there help.

A new tool box is in the near future. Thanks guys