Finishing a Birch Plywood Bar

[Evanmac]

I built a bar top in my basement made of birch ply (picture attached). The under part of the bar is stock cabinets from Home Depot (Hampton, Cognac is the stain color, (picture attached)) In the effort to match the top as close to the cabinets as possible, I researched and found that Sherwin Williams makes the stain for this cabinetry (picture attached), and I obtained the stain for use on my bar top. I thought I would just take it home, wipe it on, take it off, and proceed like any other staining job. I was wrong.

The back story…. I used Zar wood filler to fill in the brad nail holes and joints. Now I know what you are all thinking, but believe it or not; I recreated the same use of filler, with sanding, on some test pieces and the wood filler itself stained perfectly fine. The problem is that the bar is rather large (100 square feet of stainable surface area) and I only hand sanded the wood fill areas (220) as the rest of the ply veneer took the stain nicely. The sanded wood fill and general area around the wood fill that was hit with the sand paper, did not. It deflected the stain like it was porcelain. I recreated a half dozen sections on a test piece using the wood fill and various coats, grits, washing with a cloth and water, and was unable to get the look I wanted…the stock cabinet cognac color. I know I hit the actual bar top wood fill areas hard enough with the sand paper in some areas that I can see a difference in the surface looking at an angle (pictures attached). But they are not all sanded to the same degree

Now after spending my entire Sunday trying to educate myself on the internet and youtube, I have a jumbled mess of methods in my head on what I should do from using water based conditioner, to cutting my own shellac as a pre-conditioner, to using a dye and then glaze. One supposedly reliable site claims birch should never get hit with anything higher than 150 grit, then another says to condition the wood and then sand it again with 320. Then another says to use sanding sealer. Each situation is different, I guess. So that’s what led me to turn to the message boards myself.

What are the proper steps for me, a novice finisher, to get get this bar top matching the stock cabinets as closely as possible, without disassembling it and spraying piece by piece?

Thanks so much….Evan

[wdwerker]

Uniform sanding is always nessacary for an even finish.  Most factory finishes are sprayed. For a dark rich color dyes are usually sprayed as a first coat and then a stain might be used as a second coat.  

Make test boards on your scrap to practice any attempt to rescue your finish. Keep careful notes of what you did so you can repeat it .You may be able to wipe back a lot of the stain w solvent and a rag plus plenty of ventilation !

i have used an acetone based dye with great results. I thinned out the dye and used several light coats to sneak up on the level of darkness needed.

[Guest]

220 is too high of a grit for stain grade work, especially on a closed grain species like birch. As you found, the stain wont penetrate.   120 or 150 is as high as you should go.  Be careful not to sand through the veneer.   Sand by hand (not machine) in long strokes in the same direction as the grain  

As you are starting to realize, you have to get the idea of a perfect color match out of your head.   It is nearly impossible to match factory cabinets without spray gear and a lot of practice.  

Personally I find gel stains the most forgiving, especially for dark colors.  Find one that is close enough to your cabinets and go with it.  Old Masters and General Finishes both make good gel stains.   Don't judge the color until you apply your top coat.   A waterbased top coat will impart the least amount of color change.  

Also I typically fill nail holes after the finishing is complete.  I use those wax touch up crayons in a color a shade or two darker than the finishes.   Just rub the crayon on and buff out.  

By the way, applying wood conditioner, sanding sealer, and or wash coats of shellac before staining all do the same thing.  They partially seal the wood so stain absorbs more easily.  They also prevent you from getting a dark color for the same reason.   Gel stains work great without the conditioners/sanding sealers.  

[Evanmac]

Thanks for all the good advice. 

Sanding:

Mike., should I go over the entire bar with 150 grit, or do anything special to the areas I already sanded with 220....like start at 100 then work to 150?  I'm not sure how much to sand...length of time in each area, hand pressure, etc....is there a way to describe the level of sanding I should be doing?

Top Coat:

The guy at the Benjamin Moore store told me that water-based top coats can pull the stain through if I've sealed/conditioned the wood.  So he suggested an oil based poly. Is there any truth to that? I would like to avoid the fumes of the oil based because my wife is pregnant and the bar is in the sub-level basement which is fairly enclosed with only a couple small windows.

I plan on using a lot of sample boards to try to use the stock stain with light sealing/conditioning, and with a gel stain both with and without sealing/conditioning and see what I get.  I know that will be trial and error, where I'm stuck the most is the sanding part and the top coat part.

Thanks again for the help.

[Guest]

30 minutes ago, Evanmac said:

Thanks for all the good advice. 

Sanding:

Mike., should I go over the entire bar with 150 grit, or do anything special to the areas I already sanded with 220....like start at 100 then work to 150?  I'm not sure how much to sand...length of time in each area, hand pressure, etc....is there a way to describe the level of sanding I should be doing?

Top Coat:

The guy at the Benjamin Moore store told me that water-based top coats can pull the stain through if I've sealed/conditioned the wood.  So he suggested an oil based poly. Is there any truth to that? I would like to avoid the fumes of the oil based because my wife is pregnant and the bar is in the sub-level basement which is fairly enclosed with only a couple small windows.

I plan on using a lot of sample boards to try to use the stock stain with light sealing/conditioning, and with a gel stain both with and without sealing/conditioning and see what I get.  I know that will be trial and error, where I'm stuck the most is the sanding part and the top coat part.

Thanks again for the help.

Draw a light pencil line on your top and lightly sand until it is gone.   Do not apply any pressure with the pencil.  It can dent the veneer.   Alternatively, you can wipe the surface with a slightly damp (not wet!) rag.  The water will cause the surface to become fuzzy.  Sand until it is is no longer fuzzy.  Literally one or two strokes should do it. If you hit the whole top with 150 you should be fine.  

Gel Stain has a lot of binder in it (it is almost like translucent paint), so as long as you let it dry I think you can top coat with waterbase.   A seal coat of dewaxed shellac (zinnser seal coat) between the stain and top coat will prevent the stain from lifting.   That being said, I would try a sample without the shellac.

Oil base over stain works but changes the color a lot.  It is like looking at the world through sunglasses.   The factory cabinets are either finished with waterbase or a solvent lacquer.   

  A good rule of thumb with finishing is to use as few steps/products as possible.  Every step introduces a risk of compatibility or human error.  

[weithman5]

I actually wouldn't try to match. though may be too late

I like the color separation you have, and would leave the top more plain and distinct

[rodger.]

See if your local library had flexners book on wood finishing.  Lots of great help in there.

If you are combining water and solvent based products (like solvent based stain and water based top coat) make sure that you let your colour coat DRY and cure before moving on.

Normally, I generally stick to water/water ot solvent/solvent.  Though I have often used water based dye, followed by wipe on poly (solvent).

[Evanmac]

Thanks Pug....although, I wouldn't know a solvent product if I saw one.  I thought all wiping products were either dyes, water based, or oil based.

I'm googling right now and have been all day to find a top coat product that will be durable and stand up to water, alcohol, and household cleaners that does not have any lingering odor.  It's a basement bar with little ventilation and my wife is pregnant...so fumes are not an option.

[Guest]

Based on personal experience I would recommend General Finishes High Performance as a top coat.   Easy to apply and durable.  I have it on my breakfast table which gets used and wiped down multiple times a day.  

Another forum member (maybe @estesbubba) has done his own finish tests and likes Old Masters water based poly

In terms of safety for your wife, I really don't know.   Waterbase doesnt smell and is low in VOCs but I am not sure that means it is safe to breath while it is curing.  I don't mean to scare you, but even though you can't smell anything, ventilate the basement as best you can.   Open whatever windows you have and set up some fans to encourage fresh air exchange.   If your HVAC is forced air,  turn it off while the finish cures so that you are not circulating it through the house.  

[Evanmac]

Thanks Mike.  I replied to your earlier post but somehow it vanished.  I will definitely ventilate either way.  I'm in a little bit of a pickle with the top coat selection:  It's a big bar...the top is 10 feet long, so time isn't on my side which an oil based poly would help me out with, but I can't have the odor of the oil based poly, and still be happily married.  Can I use an extender with the GF High Perf?

And from what I've researched most water based polys won't last long against standing moisture/water drops, alcohol, household cleaners, or are susceptible to bar glass/bottle marks....basically a bar environment.  Is GF High Perf a better performer against those? 

Do you have any experience or knowledge of Enduro-var?  Or Crystalac as an alternative to a poly?

I'm going to take all your earlier advice....sand it all to 150, and use the sealcoat as a barrier before the top coat.  I think I have everything in a game plan now except for the top coat.

Thanks.

[Guest]

If you work quickly and keep a wet edge you should be able to use GF high performance even on a 10 foot bar.  Use a roller to apply the finish, it will go faster that way.  

Yes, it will hold up to alcohol and water as long as you don't let it sit too long.  Wipe up your spills quickly.  Definitely wait 30 days after finishing before using the bar.  It does a long time to fully cure.  Make sure people use coasters.   Almost all readily available finishes will get water rings from cold beverage glasses.   Endur-Var is a little more durable but gives you an amber color.  GF makes a commercial product called Enduro Clear that is perfectly clear but has almost the same durability as Endur-Var.  However it is harder to find and I believe spray only.   I don't know anything about Crystalac.

150 was just a suggestion - double check the stain manufacturer's recommendation.