jhl.verona Posted June 11, 2011 Report Share Posted June 11, 2011 Morning Woodtalkers, I built my first 'serious' box. Plenty of errors with the dovetails, but the lid came out very well - until this morning. Now it's banana shaped, but I don't understand why... Cut and glued on Monday from a plank of beech bought at the BORG 15 days previously (10mm x 50mm x 2000mm) Planed flat on Tuesday - flat. Rebated and chamfered on Thursday - still flat. Tuned up with bullnose and scrapers on Friday - still flat. I also wiped it over with demineralised water and let it dry, then sanded with 400 grit (was what I had) - still flat. Friday evening brought it home to take some photos, but mah boy had borrowed the camera for a concert. So I played around with the webcam - still flat. Checked my mail this morning - banana shaped. Built in my FIL's cellar - humid, as in indoor swimming pool humid. Weather - cool for June, and has rained the entire week - including this morning. Is this just my ignorance? More importantly, can something be done about it? I'm thinking of wetting the concave side only, and cramping to something flat, wet side down. Is that a permanent cure, or only temporary? I wanted to varnish it today - back in the humid dungeon cellar, but I'll wait till Monday in hope... TIA John Yesterday evening (Webcam sorry), still seems flat: , This morning: , Aaargh: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bywc Posted June 11, 2011 Report Share Posted June 11, 2011 I have had the same thing happen when i first started woodworking I used to build in a humid non air conditioned shop it would be perfect until I brought it into the house with normal to low humidity especially thinner stock like your lid within a day or so it would be a completely different shape,I never did try the re wetting and trying to force it flat and letting it dry method I normally either planed it as flat as possible trying to keep as much of the thickness as possible or I just brought a piece of the same wood into the house for a couple of weeks because I rebuilt the piece that warped. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capnjack2 Posted June 11, 2011 Report Share Posted June 11, 2011 John, Riportano l'ambiente umido del negozio. Lasciare per un paio di giorni e poi sigillarla con l'olio. Lasciate infiltrata per qualche giorno prima di portarlo fuori. Jack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capnjack2 Posted June 11, 2011 Report Share Posted June 11, 2011 Er, just for clarification, John, I don't really speak Italian. Just thought it would be fun to try and see how Google Translator does. I'm a Spanish teacher and love to read and speak other languages. Good luck with the box! Jack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhl.verona Posted June 11, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 11, 2011 Neat idea, Paul - only I've used up all the wood! Maybe I should learn to "think ahea d". I have had the same thing happen when i first started woodworking I used to build in a humid non air conditioned shop it would be perfect until I brought it into the house with normal to low humidity especially thinner stock like your lid within a day or so it would be a completely different shape,I never did try the re wetting and trying to force it flat and letting it dry method I normally either planed it as flat as possible trying to keep as much of the thickness as possible or I just brought a piece of the same wood into the house for a couple of weeks because I rebuilt the piece that warped. I have decided to turn this little upset into an experiment. I wet the top of the lid with a rag - not soaking wet, but more than damp. Cramped it to a board for 3 hours, with some thin cardboard running along the edges - there was a pronounced convex curve, roughly identical to the previous concave curve. Took it out of the cramps, and stared very hard at it for a few minutes. No movement. Checked again before pedaling home - still convex. Got home - still convex. Two hours later it was flat. I made some threats, but... One hour later it's concave again. Now I've put it in my cellar - which is also pretty humid. I'll see what happens later tonight or tomorrow morning. John, Riportano l'ambiente umido del negozio. Lasciare per un paio di giorni e poi sigillarla con l'olio. Lasciate infiltrata per qualche giorno prima di portarlo fuori. Jack Chiaro come il fango, Jack. Ain't machine translators wonderful? Ever tried retranslating back to the original language? Here you go: They report the moist environment of the store. Leave it for a couple of days and then seal it with oil. Let infiltrated for a few days before taking it out. Yes, right. You can see why the instruction booklets for those Chinese contraptions are so incomprehensible! I'm only pulling your leg (as you were me) - Italian is similar to Spanish, I can understand about 50% of what is said, but there are differences, of course. So I put it back in the dungeon shop, let it soak up a little moisture, then put BLO or Tung oil on it, then leave it be for a few days. Riportare la scatola nel laboratorio. Lascialo per un paio di giorni, e poi sigillare con olio. Lascia che l'olio indurisca per qualche giorno prima di portarlo fuori. Fine, but I'm not quite sure if this first attempt is really worthy of oil (I'm quite keen on trying out Tung, but the only place that sells it is in Rome), maybe it'll seal with water based varnish? Or is it a question of penetration soaking into the wood? I may resort to plan B, suggested by the Italian forum - shape the box to fit the lid, then explain that the lid is deliberately curved, hours and hours of painstaking planing - 'onest guv! John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texfire Posted June 11, 2011 Report Share Posted June 11, 2011 I may resort to plan B, suggested by the Italian forum - shape the box to fit the lid, then explain that the lid is deliberately curved, hours and hours of painstaking planing - 'onest guv! John Whereupon, the board will immediately straighten itself back out. Murphy hates to lose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andreas Posted June 11, 2011 Report Share Posted June 11, 2011 Haha, well said! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Screamer Posted June 11, 2011 Report Share Posted June 11, 2011 Hi John. Maybe you had bad luck and worked with reaction wood. If that is the case, it will never stay flat!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beechwood Chip Posted June 12, 2011 Report Share Posted June 12, 2011 In my experience reaction wood moves as soon as you cut it (like, pinches the saw blade during the cut). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capnjack2 Posted June 12, 2011 Report Share Posted June 12, 2011 Thanks for being a good sport, John! I still have another question and maybe a suggestion. In this photo... ...is this a raised panel or did you apply a "small rectangle" of wood to the larger one? In either case, it seems the thinner ends are able to move move easily. But certainly a two piece construction would move differently. So my suggestion is to get it back to the "jungle environment", let it flatten, glue another piece identical to the small rectangle on the opposite side to fight the movement. Afterwards, oil it until it cries "Uncle!' Jack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhl.verona Posted June 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 12, 2011 Hi, Texfire, Whereupon, the board will immediately straighten itself back out. Murphy hates to lose. Movement, Moisture, and now ... Murphy. What a combination! Hi John. Maybe you had bad luck and worked with reaction wood. If that is the case, it will never stay flat!!! No I don't hink so. This is BORG wood, already cut and planed (in a manner of speaking). I'm not that far down the road yet to prepare wood from the timber yard - but I'll get there eventually. Thanks for being a good sport, John! De nada, Jack. I still have another question and maybe a suggestion. In this photo... ...is this a raised panel or did you apply a "small rectangle" of wood to the larger one? In either case, it seems the thinner ends are able to move move easily. But certainly a two piece construction would move differently. So my suggestion is to get it back to the "jungle environment", let it flatten, glue another piece identical to the small rectangle on the opposite side to fight the movement. Afterwards, oil it until it cries "Uncle!' Jack You're right - it is a raised panel. So another first! I hadn't realised that. I match jointed two pieces along the length - which worked out very well indeed. Then cut to size with the joint in the centre, and planed down the edges. The interesting thing is that the curve runs all the way along the lid, there is no accentuation at the extreme short edges. I'll write an article "Wood bending using the damp cellar technique". I brought the box out of my cellar, but the cellar is much drier than my FIL's - and the sun is out today, so we've gone from 20°C to 30°C, which means the curve is still there, though it is slightly reduced. I'll leave it in the house and see where it goes I checked some of the other offcuts, and most of them have a quite pronounced traversal curve now, so obviously one side absorbs moisture more than the other - the BORG is not so humid as the cellar. It may have happened with the lid, which I planed smooth both sides, though I don't recall any rocking. Anyway, now I have four options: 1. (Jack) Buy some BLO and give it a good massage. 2. (Paul Nunya) Get another piece of wood, joint and plane, then get it out of the cellar. 3. (Italian) Call it art, and shape the box - I'm still sooo tempted - but defy Murphy (Texfire) - and I have a personal Murphy field. 4. Invite friends to the cellar to admire the flat lidded box, explaining that, like a good wine, it doesn't travel. This is also the order I will take to cure the banana lid. Many thanks to all, I'll let you know how things work out. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joestyles Posted June 15, 2011 Report Share Posted June 15, 2011 Patience can help you out here give the wood time to adapt to the new situation put something heavy on it while it dries out or gains so moisture finishing it before you leave the basement might help slow this process but will not stop it entirely. I would not do the raised panel I would use the same stock to make a thinner keeper on the lid and reverse the grain so it will want to move opposite the top of the lid. Good luck John. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhl.verona Posted June 15, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 15, 2011 I didn't have enough beech to remake the lid, and the stuff at the BORG resembled a donkey's hind leg. I bought some Kotò instead which will look different - it's hard but lighter. The new top will definitely be symmetrical, I've had enough of the sombrero effect! The original lid is back in the basement, wetted and in irons (cramped convex). I've oiled a small scrap piece of beech with BLO for practice - hadn't expected it to stink quite so much as it does. Will get to them in between pauses in the tool box build now that I have finally got the birch plywood. Learning from my mistakes. Makes me feel like Charlie Brown. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nateswoodworks Posted June 16, 2011 Report Share Posted June 16, 2011 My suggestion is to bring it out of the cellar and leave it in your living area for a week or so (just put it somewhere you don't see it so that it won't taunt you!) either clamped flat or set something really heavy on it, but there is no need to wet your wood as it is already too wet. More than likely you have noticed that your board has pretty significantly curved growth and with the added moisture they are just expanding causing the curve, get it to dry to a stable moisture level and you may be alright. Next time you do something like this where you are going to be experiencing great moisture differences you may want to consider quarter sawn stock to save yourself some misery, but it will change the look of your project. I hope things work out for you, it can be very frustrating to go though this but you also learn so much during times like this. Please keep us posted. Nate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhl.verona Posted June 16, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 16, 2011 Thank you for that, Nate. I'll put it on the list. There may be more than one way to skin this cat. I'm still at point one of my plan of action. I didn't look today, tomorrow I'll start slapping on some BLO. I have spare wood - though different species, for another top. I'm putting this down to experience, since it's just a little box, I'm not too worried about making a pig's ear of it. Good job I didn't start with a highboy! Since I treated myself to a new camera, (still learning though, so not yet perfect) I thought I'd add a few closeups - the good, the bad, and, well, mostly the ugly. The underside of the box - came out well, only one poor mitre joint. Loose change very useful as shims: Inside of the box - worst joint. Good enough for me: First, and worst dovetail. Big gaps here, 0.5mm, say 1/32" or more. Should I fill? I'll be keeping the box. I tried Bob Rozaieski's burnisher trick on the lower mitre corner, helped a bit, but the gap remains. Moral of the story; cut to the waste of the line and be courageous. Last and best dovetail. The chipouts in the tail were caused by the saw falling on the dovetail when finishing the mitre cut above. Now I put a thin strip in the pin hole to protect it. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhl.verona Posted June 22, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 22, 2011 Dedicated a little time to that box. I filled the gaps with a sawdust/glue mix. Breaking news - the lid is still flat. Another interesting thing is that it is now also a tight fit to the box - as in "clunk", no movement. At home it positively rattled. So it looks like I have two seasons here, winter like in the dungeon - as in humid, and summer like at home, er, 'cause it's summer. Anyway, made yet another mystak, should have tested with white spirits first: That's glue on the dovetail, right? Thought so. Sigh. I refuse to burn this box! So would a scraper get me out of the pooh, pooh this time? TIA John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capnjack2 Posted June 22, 2011 Report Share Posted June 22, 2011 Yup, a nicely sharpened scraper; easier to control than sandpaper, IMHO. And then hit it with a sledge hammer. Stupid box! Jack 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben@FineWoodworking Posted June 22, 2011 Report Share Posted June 22, 2011 This box will be very nice when it's done and you sir will have earned it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhl.verona Posted June 23, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 23, 2011 Yup, a nicely sharpened scraper; easier to control than sandpaper, IMHO. And then hit it with a sledge hammer. Stupid box! Jack Third coat of oil. Still can't hear it crying 'Zio'! I'm not a man of violence, but I thought a little persuasion won't harm... [Edit] Oops. That photo shows the opposite side, which ha no glue stain. Here's the correct side. The scraper did a good job. The hammer is also doing a good job. All is still flat. [/Edit] Jack, FYI, there's also the Italian thread. This box will be very nice when it's done and you sir will have earned it! Personally I think it will be wonderful when it's done. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joestyles Posted June 24, 2011 Report Share Posted June 24, 2011 Nice fix John as I am sure you have learned like I did woodwork tends to be a ratio of creation and fixing when I started it was around 10% creation and 90% fixing (most of that time trying to figure out how)Now my good days are about 30% fixing/trouble shooting. You should be proud of this box even though it is not yet your best one it will mean something to you always. I know my first box inside out even though I dont have it anymore. I remember the joints and all the efforts that went into it. I will remember it always and wish I had kept it but a part of me is happy that someone else has it and is using it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhl.verona Posted July 2, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 2, 2011 I stopped putting boiled linseed oil on the box after four coats. I waited about three days, then decided to try the BLO/Varnish/thinner mix to finish off. I had thought about simply waxing the thing - would have been a better choice, methinks. I put the mix on with a cloth pretty heavily, then wiped the excess off. The problem is that, after a further four days it's still a little tacky in places. I tried sanding lightly, but it gummed up the sandpaper so I stopped. I had thought that the mix would take about two days to cure, so I'm thinking I did something wrong (again). I used the 'standard' 33% BLO, polyurethane and thinners. I'll just wait a few more days to see if it cures, and thin down the mix before applying another coat. I don't have pictures, but the finish is quite blotchy. There are some parts that are dry and dull, others that are dry and shiny, and other areas that are tacky, but only slightly. If the worst comes to the worst, I'll scrape it all off... John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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