sapele steve Posted October 20, 2011 Report Share Posted October 20, 2011 Hi All: I am making a Guitar & getting ready to attach the neck to the body. It's customary to simple use screws to accomplish this. However, I have seen the use of threaded inserts that can be embedded into the neck with the use of allen type screws through the body. Is anyone familiar with this type of joinery? If so, where can I purchase this type of bolting system? I have already done a Google search with no real results. Any & all info appreciated......Thanks Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onboard Posted October 20, 2011 Report Share Posted October 20, 2011 Steve, I know nothing about Lutherie, and the following may not be what you're looking for. However, I found this article on “Bolt-on Neck Joint for Acoustic Instruments.” I saw things about Truss Rods, but I’m guessing you’re not talking about that. Here's another article on the matter. This is a pdf by Taylor which discusses a bolt on neck, and this is a supplier of neck bolts. My 2 cents worth of searching. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim DaddyO Posted October 20, 2011 Report Share Posted October 20, 2011 I have seen it where T-nuts are placed in the neck, under the fretboard. This means that you have to fit the neck to the body, drill the holes, and install the T-nuts before the fretboard is glued on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sapele steve Posted October 20, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2011 Hi Onboard & Jim: That's exactly what I was looking for, thanks! However, I should have specified that I am making a Fender Electric Bass Guitar, not an acoustic. So, I will have to take careful measurements so that I can order the correct bolts/nuts for the attachment. BTW, I am only making the Body of the Guitar & ordered the neck separately. So, the neck is already fretted. The attachment should be straight forward but has to be done correctly or ELSE!! Thanks again for your replies..... Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nateswoodworks Posted October 20, 2011 Report Share Posted October 20, 2011 Sounds like a fun project. I know in the future I will be making one (not a base guitar though) for my son. He started taking lessons in Feb. and is doing awesome!! Please keep us posted on your progress! Nate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted October 20, 2011 Report Share Posted October 20, 2011 Take a look at Grizzy's web site then download the instruction manual for something like a Fender Strat knock off. Im pretty sure you just use screws and a neck plate on the body. Don Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sapele steve Posted October 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 21, 2011 Hi Don: Yes they only use screws & a plate on the outside of the body, which I do have with my set up. However, if one does not want to glue the neck to the body, that is not the best method of attachment IMO. The bolt on system is much better & avoids the glue up. I just ordered what I think will do the job from mcmaster.com. They have many specialty items made for jobs like this. Also, the best thing about not gluing up that joint is that if the neck has to be slightly angled back, it makes it easy to remove the neck to put shims in & make the necessary corrections. Anyway, I will keep you guys posted. Thanks again for the replies...... Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kerry Posted October 21, 2011 Report Share Posted October 21, 2011 http://www.mcfeelys.com/steel-thread-inserts Is what you are looking for. They fit into a larger hole and have an aggressive deep thread on the outside of the barrel and then a machine screw thread in the center of them. What you are looking to do is not a common way of attaching a bolt on neck but, has been done before. Usually it is done if the neck needs to be frequently removed for relief adjustment and the adjustment is located at the heel of the neck (such as found on older Fender Strats). If the neck isn't removed often you really don't need to use them but that is up to you. Just be sure that the inserts are NOT longer than the heel thickness of your neck as you do NOT want to drill into the fretboard under any circumstances as this could weaken it, especially if it happens under a fret slot. You also must make absolutely sure that the machine screws are sized to not go all the way to the bottom of the insert, again for similar reasons those screws can also cause the fretboard to separate from the neck if they are too long as they would be providing a lifting force to the underside of the fretboard. You will still also need the neck plate to keep the screw heads from sinking or being pulled into the body. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim DaddyO Posted October 21, 2011 Report Share Posted October 21, 2011 If you are buying the neck, go with a neck plate and screws....I got mine from GFS (guitar fetish), but they are available elsewhere. Your project is much like mine was...........here's some photos of the build, in no particular order, there are shots of the neck slot. http://s591.photobucket.com/albums/ss356/JimDaddyO/Tone%20project/?albumview=slideshow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kerry Posted October 21, 2011 Report Share Posted October 21, 2011 However, I have seen the use of threaded inserts that can be embedded into the neck with the use of allen type screws through the body. I have never seen what you describe. The closest I have seen to an allen screw neck attachment system is used by Ibanez but it is not a true allen screw. It is an oval headed screw seated into the body and reinforced by a ferrel instead of a neck plate. These screws do use allen keys for tightening them but are definitely not a straight threaded shank like a true allen screw. You have to realize that the screw needs a head to bear against the body as the holes in the body are not touched by the screw threads. You couldn't tighten the neck properly with an allen screw as both the body and the neck holes would have to have threads in them. Wouldn't work. The neck plate (such as on a Strat) or the inset ferrels (such as on an Ibanez) spread the pressure of the screw heads out over a larger surface to keep them being pulled through the body by the string tension. A four string bass has something on the order of 100 pounds of string tension when standard tuned. Think about that for a moment. That's 100 pounds of force trying to pull the headstock and the body into a v shape where the neck and body join! The only things preventing that from happening are the neck screws. That's why the screws need either the neck plate or the ferrels to spread that force out over a larger area. The screw heads are just too small and would be pulled clear through the body in short period of time. I see no way of using allen screws to make this join because of those factors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creoleblues Posted October 21, 2011 Report Share Posted October 21, 2011 Luthiers Mercantile International sells what you're looking for. Bolt-on neck inserts are sold here http://www.lmii.com/CartTwo/thirdproducts.asp?CategoryName=Truss+Rods%2FNeck+Parts&NameProdHeader=Bolt-On+Neck+Inserts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kerry Posted October 21, 2011 Report Share Posted October 21, 2011 However, if one does not want to glue the neck to the body, that is not the best method of attachment IMO. The bolt on system is much better & avoids the glue up. Also, the best thing about not gluing up that joint is that if the neck has to be slightly angled back, it makes it easy to remove the neck to put shims in & make the necessary corrections. Anyway, I will keep you guys posted. Thanks again for the replies...... Steve You should have already figured out any neck angle needed and cut it into the body's neck pocket or angled the neck's heel. Angle is solely based on height of the bridge to the height of the fretboard when the neck is properly seated. The need for an angle could (in theory) even be eliminated in extreme bridge height cases, such as a tune-o-matic style bridge (think Les Paul if you don't know what style of bridge that is), though the neck would be sitting extremely far out of the body in such a case. I do admit that I am unfamiliar with basses in general but I don't believe they have angled back necks usually. Most bass bridges I have seen look similar to the Fender Strat hardtail bridges. Shims would not be as good of a way to make that angle, if it is needed, as cutting the angle into the neck pocket or the heel as you lose solid contact across the entire bearing surfaces. Whether you bolt the neck on or glue it in makes no real difference as far as how structurally sound the instrument is it all comes down to the fit of the joint between the neck and body. Your neck pocket should fit the neck's heel snugly enough that when the neck is inserted into the pocket you can pick up the neck and have the body come with it. I am talking about slowly and gently doing this btw. If the fit is too tight you risk splitting the pocket when you seat the neck. It should require nothing more than firm pressure to seat the neck into the pocket. If you have to force it or use a hammer it is way too tight . You also have too allow room for your finish's thickness as well of course. As far as glue-in or bolt-on that is personal preference, though bolt-on does have the advantage of easy neck replacement in the event that the neck is damaged (or vice versa). Though it looks like you purchased a neck in which case it is almost definitely designed to be bolted on. A glued in (set) neck has a longer tenon on it that is "set" into the body. That tenon generally runs completely through the neck pickup's pocket area (at least on a guitar, it may well be even longer on a bass). The neck is also shaped to blend into the body at the join on a glue-in which eliminates the step between the neck and body found on bolt-on guitars. The bolt-on method was invented by Fender as far as I know and it was simply to make producing guitars as efficient as possible and make replacing the neck easier. Glue-in or set necks have been around much, much longer. There is also a third method known as neck-through. This has the neck running completely through the body's center and the excess shape of the body is achieved by gluing "wings" onto either side of the neck, in case anyone wondered. Uh yeah... I think I'll quit rambling now. Good luck and please post some pics when you have it completed. I would enjoy seeing them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sapele steve Posted October 22, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 22, 2011 Creole: Those inserts are for Acoustic Guitar necks as they are not long enough to be able to use on an Electric Guitar set up. Kerry: Thanks for the excellent info, it's much appreciated. I now know that I will have to use the plate on the body. Unfortunately, I had done a 1/2 round over on the back of the Guitar and now the plate does not sit flat but slightly overhangs the round over, not too good & there is really no way to fix that even though it's a minor flaw. I'll just have to make it work. This is my second build. The first one I did was a kit Les Paul Guitar. This time around I decided to build the body myself & purchase the neck. Neck construction if much more difficult as far as getting the dimensions correct & I did not want to deal with that. Anyway, back to trying to get this build done. This will probably be my last Guitar project. It's been quite a learning experience for sure. Thanks again. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sapele steve Posted October 22, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 22, 2011 I forgot to mention to Jim DaddyO what a great Guitar build he did, very nice work. Now if I can get close to that I'd be very happy!! Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kerry Posted October 22, 2011 Report Share Posted October 22, 2011 Glad the info helped. Sorry if I tended to come across a little like a know-it-all. I tend to sound that way, especially when I'm tired. Which I was when I wrote all that. I have no idea why I tend to be that way other than I am, especially when I do know quite a bit about a subject. Hope it doesn't put anyone off who reads my posts, as I am just really trying to convey what knowledge I have on a subject. Anyway enough of that. http://ibanez.wikia.com/wiki/All_Access_Neck_Joint If you look at the pic on that page you will see the ferrels used instead of a neck plate. This is the way to go if you already did a round-over of the body in that area. Ibanez calls theirs the "all access neck joint" but I have seen it used by other makers as well, though I think Ibanez was the first to do so. Could be wrong on that one. That method can make a really comfortable transition between the neck and body for a bolt-on style join. They actually taper that area so it is thinner, instead of keeping it flat like found on a Strat for example. Yea making a neck is the most exacting part of a guitar build though really only because of the fretboard's fret slots. Those need to be cut to thousandths of an inch for the guitar to intonate properly. Though the bridge needs to placed on the body pretty exactly as well, so it's not the only place where exacting measurement is required. I must admit that I still have not built one myself but it is something I will do either in 2012 or 2013. I'm looking to do a neck through for mine and build everything including the neck. Hopefully it will be actually playable when I do get it built, as my woodworking skills are pretty low yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sapele steve Posted November 5, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 5, 2011 Hi All: OK, so I finally finished the Bass Guitar build & thought that I would share some photos. It came out pretty good for a first time build of a body. I took it to a Guitar shop in my area & had the guy set it all up. I had wired the jack plate wrong (crossed the wires), so that had to be corrected. Other than that, he liked the Guitar & said that it played really well, comparing it to Guitar in the 2 to 3 Grand price range! So, I felt good about that. Hope you enjoy the pictures & any comments Positive or Negative are welcome. Finally, thanks for all of the input.............. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim DaddyO Posted November 6, 2011 Report Share Posted November 6, 2011 Great job! Congratulations on getting it done. Enjoy playing it!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sapele steve Posted November 6, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 6, 2011 Hi Jim: Thanks! However, I must tell you that I don't play an instrument of any kind. This is a gift for my Son-In-Law who does play Bass. Fun build but I don't know that I will be doing one again any time soon.... Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim DaddyO Posted November 7, 2011 Report Share Posted November 7, 2011 Not to worry, I have had a guitar for over 30 years and my wife still says I can't play worth a damn.......she is right, but I love "noodling" on it anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sapele steve Posted November 7, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 7, 2011 Funny you should say that as I just purchased a cheap Acoustic Guitar to fool around with. I figure in my old age perhaps I can learn to play a few notes? I'm willing to give it a shot. At least it will keep me occupied while in "semi-retirement". I've only had it for a week & it's been trying but fun nonetheless.......Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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