woodhack Posted November 16, 2011 Report Share Posted November 16, 2011 Is this just me or is anyone else frustrated with the editing of the second season of Rough Cut. I just watched the Arts & Crafts chair episode and they completely ignored the most important design aspect of the project (at least to me), the through tenons on the arms. There is a gentle curve cut into the arm so how does Tommy cut the through mortise to get the correct angles for what is a square 90 deg. tenon? No one knows because "POOF", what do you know, here's an arm with two square holes in it and, of course, they fit perfectly with the tenons. I know it's just a 30 minute (actually closer to 25) show and you can't show every aspect of milling and assembly for the project, but if Tommy is going to do more complex projects maybe they should start spreading it over two episodes. I like that they are doing more complex projects than Norm did but if they're not going to show how someone as skilled as Tommy is solving difficult joinery problems, then whats the point of doing more complex projects? (Steps off soapbox.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Screamer777 Posted November 16, 2011 Report Share Posted November 16, 2011 I agree. I don't like to criticize people, but his video's is a bit " do not come to the point." 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric. Posted November 16, 2011 Report Share Posted November 16, 2011 You have to realize it's not his fault. The TV woodworking show format is not conducive to being comprehensive. The producers want him to crank out a dozen 40 hour projects per season, and he gets about 23 minutes to do each one...you're not even gonna scratch the surface like that. That's why we're all here. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lighthearted Posted November 16, 2011 Report Share Posted November 16, 2011 Eric is right on the money. I've said it before, as someone who works in television, its only 22 minutes and they try to squeeze way too much in. They take these field trips and ask one question and move on. As a viewer it can get really frustrating. I want more. I wish the show was an hour. I like Tommy quite a bit, but i won't buy the DVD's as I am not sure what I'll get and I really think PBS should just post them on their website for free. It's PBS after all. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beechwood Chip Posted November 16, 2011 Report Share Posted November 16, 2011 Also, Tommy may not have the final say on what happens in the cutting room. Maybe those decisions are being made by a film major (as opposed to wood worker) who decides that the show would flow much more smoothly if it didn't get bogged down in all these details. What you get is a watchable documentary about building a chair, as opposed to a lesson that explains how to build a chair. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodhack Posted November 16, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 16, 2011 I agree with all of the comments here, and I'm not criticizing Tommy at all because I admire his work. I guess this is more directed at Russell Morash and the editing process. I re-watched the episode and they spend 10 minutes plowing out mortises on a machine, which they've done countless times in past episodes. It seems to me they could have glossed over THAT portion of the show and concentrated on the most important design element of the chair. I agree with you lighthearted. I'm not purchasing these DVD's either unless there is a ton of extra footage included. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulMarcel Posted November 16, 2011 Report Share Posted November 16, 2011 They probably left the mortising in there because it was action... tools running, danger, peril, etc. Talking about geometry to figure out a tenon angle... ZZZZzzzzz...... -bonk!- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodhack Posted November 16, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 16, 2011 They probably left the mortising in there because it was action... tools running, danger, peril, etc. Talking about geometry to figure out a tenon angle... ZZZZzzzzz...... -bonk!- I suppose Paul-Marcel. All I know is if I were making that chair, the arm is the part i would like the most information on because it's the part I'm most likely to f#@k up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cherringshaw Posted November 16, 2011 Report Share Posted November 16, 2011 I agree - between the terrible editing, and his presentation style (repeating "right guys?" and "alright?" over and over and over to the point my wife even jokes about it) - it's hard to watch it. And very disappointing for someone so immensely talented and dedicated to his craft, with so much to teach the rest of us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike M Posted November 16, 2011 Report Share Posted November 16, 2011 You should watch his older videos on his web site. He has a couple of projects in which he covers the details of construction quite thoroughly. I've watched the ones on the small Chest, the Bedroom Set and the Bombe Secretary and enjoyed them all. The videos are on his web site http://www.thomasjmacdonald.com/ Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mds2 Posted November 17, 2011 Report Share Posted November 17, 2011 I agree - between the terrible editing, and his presentation style (repeating "right guys?" and "alright?" over and over and over to the point my wife even jokes about it) - it's hard to watch it. And very disappointing for someone so immensely talented and dedicated to his craft, with so much to teach the rest of us. I agree with you. I watched this show for the first time ever Monday night. The way it is edited is insane and makes it very difficult to watch. It almost seemed like the editor smoked a bunch of crack before cutting this together. Make each shot last more than 2/10th of a second and it would be a much better show. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric. Posted November 17, 2011 Report Share Posted November 17, 2011 I agree with you. I watched this show for the first time ever Monday night. The way it is edited is insane and makes it very difficult to watch. It almost seemed like the editor smoked a bunch of crack before cutting this together. Make each shot last more than 2/10th of a second and it would be a much better show. If you had to compress dozens of hours of footage into 23 minutes, you'd be smoking crack, too. You guys gotta cut him a break. He's a woodworker, not a director. He's already taken enough flack for not filling Norm's shoes, which I'm sure was never his goal in the first place. He was given an opportunity to do a TV show about woodworking and he took it...who wouldn't? He seems like a nice enough guy, and I'm sure if he could show every step of every project he'd be more than happy to oblige. The content that we all wish for can be found on the cutting room floor, and Tommy has absolutely no control over that. He does say "okay guys?" a lot. Maybe he could cut back on that a little bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmac Posted November 17, 2011 Report Share Posted November 17, 2011 The content that we all wish for can be found on the cutting room floor. Or here: http://thewoodwhispe...category/video/ -- Russ 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nateswoodworks Posted November 17, 2011 Report Share Posted November 17, 2011 Anyone who has know Tommy for a while knows that he prides himself in teaching the techniques, like Paul said his hands are tied. He is making a bunch of short videos (he said 50) so maybe there will be some help there for you? I am still ticked at out PBS, they had him on last season so I was all psyched about season 2-then nothing!! I contacted PBS and they said they would pass on my request but I doubt that will change anything. I thought about calling every other day with a different name but thats just not right and there aren't enough hours in the day now!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mds2 Posted November 17, 2011 Report Share Posted November 17, 2011 If you had to compress dozens of hours of footage into 23 minutes, you'd be smoking crack, too. Here is one example of how it could be better. In the episode I watched he was cutting dove tails by hand. It was edited in a way that showed about half a saw stroke per dove tail, shown in very quick succession- BAMBAMBAMBAMBAM. Each "BAM" being a new camera shot. In my opinion just showing cutting one dovetail in its entirety would be better, and easier on the eyes and brain to watch. The main problem with the show is the editing. Other woodworking shows do a much better job of this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry_in_SD Posted November 17, 2011 Report Share Posted November 17, 2011 This is why Marc's Woodwhisper and other Internet woodworking forums / shows / guilds work so well over TV programs -- they aren't constrained by a fixed time slot. I subscribe to the Guild because Marc has the luxury to do it right. I even enjoy when he has to fix a mistake as we all at some point have to fix a mistake and watching his approach to the problem helps me when I have to deal with my mistakes. And I pick up tips and tricks as he works through a project. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
areynoldsre Posted November 17, 2011 Report Share Posted November 17, 2011 This is why Marc's Woodwhisper and other Internet woodworking forums / shows / guilds work so well over TV programs -- they aren't constrained by a fixed time slot. I subscribe to the Guild because Marc has the luxury to do it right. I even enjoy when he has to fix a mistake as we all at some point have to fix a mistake and watching his approach to the problem helps me when I have to deal with my mistakes. And I pick up tips and tricks as he works through a project. I wish there was out there about how to fix mistakes. Too many TV programs and video podcasters edit that part out. I make lots of mistakes and would like more insight into how to fix them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewoodwhisperer Posted November 18, 2011 Report Share Posted November 18, 2011 While lots of folks give Tommy crap about his mannerisms, that's just who he is. We all have them and when you put yourself in front of a camera under time constraints, you tend to become an amplified (maybe even parodied) version of yourself. Its a bit of a weird phenomenon and I have seen myself do it many times. But if the original poster's comments were a rant about Tommy, I might ask everyone to chill out. We're not here to make personal criticisms like that. This post, however, brings up a really good point: the editing leaves something to be desired. To tell you the truth, I was hoping season 2 would have brought some improvements and changes in editing of the show, but it sounds like that's not the case? I am not sure if Phoenix is carrying this season as it hasn't shown up on my Tivo, so I haven't seen it myself. But as someone who edits woodworking videos for a living, bad editing really bugs me. I suppose you can cut them some slack for Season 1 as Tommy got comfortable, the cameraman got comfortable with Tommy, and the editor got comfortable with the subject matter. But if the current shows still feel as if they are presented at a breakneck pace, that's going to be disappointing. I also realize TV shows are very limited and constrained in their presentation options. But when I think of woodworking TV shows, I think back to Woodworks and the New Yankee Workshop and neither show ever felt rushed to me. And you can't pull the "project complexity card" on David or even Norm's later seasons. Both included complex projects. Think of David's patinas, bent laminations, inlays, marquetry, veneering, etc.... And I recall Norm's Highboy, Lowboy, and various fairly complex casegood projects. But the editing and presentation were done in such a way that it felt digestible with nothing major left out. So I agree that you can't blame Tommy for this. There are many more hands involved in the process before that show hits the airwaves and frankly, it comes down to production, direction, and editing. I was really hoping season 2 would improve on all these things but I'll have to reserve judgement until I see it for myself. I should definitely clarify one thing before I shut my trap here: any woodworking on TV is a good thing. So I hope the show continues for many seasons. But I do think NYW and Woodworks set the bar pretty high for what a high quality woodworking show can be. Add to that the many varied topics being covered with no time constraints on the internet, and its a pretty tough market these days. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeithJuly Posted November 22, 2011 Report Share Posted November 22, 2011 When the bus has a flat tire, can you really blame the bus driver? Tommy is a skilled woodworker but I don't think he has final say. TV programs are designed to entertain and if you pick up a few pointers along the way then great. They are marketing to more than just woodworkers so their focus is on how much they can cover in a give time frame. If you want to learn the finer points of woodworking, TV is probably not the ideal choice. Consider the wealth of information in books, woodworking classes, woodworking forums, woodworking clubs and YouTube. Keith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrbutton Posted November 29, 2011 Report Share Posted November 29, 2011 I do have to say that I learned a lot from Norm is years gone by. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bois Posted December 2, 2011 Report Share Posted December 2, 2011 Let me start by saying that I have a lot of respect for Tommy and he has been nothing but supportive of me. However I do take exception with his statement from WIA11 that Internet woodworking is dead. I think the examples cited here are clear proof that there is still demand for more detailed online footage. I often feel I go into too much detail with my own videos but am constantly reinforced by viewers that they want that level of detail. And I think Marc's traffic levels would be proof enough that people are still hungry for online woodworking. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mn pete Posted December 2, 2011 Report Share Posted December 2, 2011 Great discussion. We saw season 1 when we lived in Minnesota, but don't have it here in Colorado, so I haven't seen any of the season 2 offerings. I kind of liked the fact that Tommy has his own mannerisms and figured that over time those would be polished. Some of the seaon 1 stuff felt a little rushed, but I also thought of it as a "well this is the first run through" kind of thing...again, more polish over time. Bummer that it doesn't sound like the editing got much better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewoodwhisperer Posted December 3, 2011 Report Share Posted December 3, 2011 "internet woodworking is dead"....that is simply laughable. That's like a brick and mortar store trying to convince people that online retail is dead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimB1 Posted December 4, 2011 Report Share Posted December 4, 2011 I watched the first season and about half the 2nd season. Still have a few more on tivo to watch yet but I'm not in a rush because I'm not too fond of the show. It's almost a chore to watch it sometimes. I'd much rather watch Shannon Roger's or Marc's podcasts, they are never a chore to watch and are entertaining as heck... Maybe it would be better if he didn't go places and just showed a snapshot or two on the screen of what he wants to build with a quick one minute explanation of the history or whatever. They waste so much time doing that and end up asking one question to the proprietor of the shop or museum or wherever they go that I have no interest in the place or the project which is OK because then he doesn't really show you how to make it anyway. I'd rather that 10 minute segment be wiped and they use it to show more detailed woodworking technique. Maybe even make each project stretch over two episodes to slow it down and allow us to actually see what's happening. It's like the show is almost but not quite useful. You can see what Tommy Mac wants to be but it just hasn't firmed up yet and I agree that it is frustrating to watch and sometimes you just want to yell at the TV. -Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Screamer777 Posted December 4, 2011 Report Share Posted December 4, 2011 The big difference between The Woodwhispere and Roughcut is that Marc is fact to the point. What I need to know is how can I persuade our satellite tv (DSTV) to air Marc videos? What must I know legally etc. Johan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.