What's Fair?

[rmac]

The recent "Ask Marc" question about the WoodWhisperer cutting board design got me thinking about similar issues.

Suppose that I buy a magazine that contains an article describing an original and unique piece of furniture. The article includes both detailed drawings and detailed instructions for building it. It seems pretty clear to me that in buying the magazine, I am also buying a license to build at least one copy of the piece for my personal use. Fair enough.

But how far does that license extend? Can I make multiple copies as gifts for family and friends? Can I make multiple copies to sell to family and friends? Can I open up a factory and crank out thousands of copies for sale to the public? Would a lawyer have different answers to these questions than the original designer of the piece? Would your mom or your rabbi or your friendly neighborhood ethicist have different answers still?

I've never seen a real discussion of these questions. What do you guys think?

-- Russ

PS: (Edit) I'm not talking about making copies from pictures in advertisements or on the web, or from pieces actually observed out there in the real world. That's a completely different can of worms. I'm only talking about making copies from magazine plans.

[CessnaPilotBarry]

Interesting take from an intellectual property counsellor:

http://www.finewoodworking.com/item/31793/is-copying-furniture-legal

[jhl.verona]

I completely agree with your 'personal use' policy - that's exactly how I'd apply it too. I can't imagine it any other way, otherwise the magazines would be stifling an enthusiasm that they are trying to encourage. Few people - the readers - would contemplate building more than one (or one at a time) anyway.

For the other aspects, things are a little more complicated - though I'm not a lawyer, mom, rabbi or ethicist. But possibly friendly, so I'm squeezing myself into the discussion. Considering the cost of the materials, I would personally include purchasing the plans for each additional piece, or each additional batch production - they're usually never very expensive, when available.

Once you talk about money - selling at cost, or for profit, then I would at least add the plan price. Some magazines are quite specific - if the design is the property of the magazine, i.e., the idea of one of the editors, then there isn't any problem - the cost of purchasing the magazine pays for the license. If, on the other hand, the design is provided by a guest author, usually a professional woodworker (by that I mean someone who makes a living working wood), then you should make a private agreement with that author. I agree with this requirement whether the magazine specifies it or not.

Though I have never done so myself (not having this requirement yet), I can't imagine the authors being particularly difficult about it - and it's a good excuse to strike up a conversation with someone who can easily provide excellent guidance - if asked. Also some pieces are built differently in series than as one-offs. The author probably has done both at some time, or made improvements since the time the plans were published. It doesn't harm to ask, and you could get more than you expected - in a nice sense.

The article Barry pointed out was interesting in that it seems to infer that a specific piece of furniture has little or no intellectual property, but the photograph of it does. Funny old world. Though given the number of lawyers in Italy, I wouldn't like to put that to the test.

John

[jmack77]

I have noticed at the end of two plans that I purchased from Wood Magazine a little blurb about this. It stayed that buying the plans did not sell you the license to the piece. But I don't think I've seen that same blurb in the magazine itself.

[ChetlovesMer]

This has come up a few times in my world. Somebody sees something in a magazine and says "Hey Chet, you do custom work. Will you build that for me for a price?"

I didn't know the rules on it, but I wrote to Wood Magazine and asked. They responded that sometimes the magazine holds the rights to the plan and sometimes the individual who wrote the article does. But either way, I can build 25 copies of any plan in their magazine as long as I don't sell them. I CAN give them away as gifts. After 25 copies or if I want to sell any copies, I need to contact the magazine and they will tell me "no", or if it's owned by the individual who wrote the article then he or she can tell me either "no", "Yeah, no problem, go ahead", or "yeah, no problem, but I want a cut."

Does that make sense.

[dwacker]

This has come up a few times in my world. Somebody sees something in a magazine and says "Hey Chet, you do custom work. Will you build that for me for a price?"

I didn't know the rules on it, but I wrote to Wood Magazine and asked. They responded that sometimes the magazine holds the rights to the plan and sometimes the individual who wrote the article does. But either way, I can build 25 copies of any plan in their magazine as long as I don't sell them. I CAN give them away as gifts. After 25 copies or if I want to sell any copies, I need to contact the magazine and they will tell me "no", or if it's owned by the individual who wrote the article then he or she can tell me either "no", "Yeah, no problem, go ahead", or "yeah, no problem, but I want a cut."

Does that make sense.

Thats a load. They dont provide you with a "25 copy gift license". You are free to make as many as you want as long as you are not making money. They hold the rights to the plans and the plans only. The plans themselves are protected by copyright just like the rest of the magazine. 99% of the plans are for a very generic end product and can't be protected. Ethically its up to you to decide whether you are going to profit from the end product.

Don

[jmack77]

How about this? You make a bookcase from a plan in a magazine. Then after a while you want to get rid of it via Craigslist. How can the magazine come back to you and sue you for selling it?

[rmac]

You are free to make as many as you want as long as you are not making money.

Maybe that last part is a load, too. The magazines that I read don't state or even imply that I can't sell things that I've built from their plans. So it seems to me that legally you are free to make as many as you want, and then to do whatever you want with them. Whether or not that's ethical is a more difficult question, though, that (like all ethical questions) ultimately boils down to where each individual draws the line between right and wrong.

I'm actually thankful that there's not a lot of annoying fine print about this in all the woodworking magazines, but at the same time I'm surprised that the authors are willing to put their designs out there (with detailed build instructions, to boot) without it.

I'm sort of hoping that Greg Paolini might chime in as somebody might actually know how it's all supposed to work. Greg, are you following this?

-- Russ

[dwacker]

Maybe that last part is a load, too. The magazines that I read don't state or even imply that I can't sell things that I've built from their plans. So it seems to me that legally you are free to make as many as you want, and then to do whatever you want with them. Whether or not that's ethical is a more difficult question, though, that (like all ethical questions) ultimately boils down to where each individual draws the line between right and wrong.

I'm actually thankful that there's not a lot of annoying fine print about this in all the woodworking magazines, but at the same time I'm surprised that the authors are willing to put their designs out there (with detailed build instructions, to boot) without it.

I'm sort of hoping that Greg Paolini might chime in as somebody might actually know how it's all supposed to work. Greg, are you following this?

-- Russ

No you can't make money of off somebody else's work, sort of. If you make money they have grounds to bring a suit whether they actually win or even make it past summary judgement is up to the court. Do they have enough to cost you and themselves thousands in legal fees, you bet. Now realistically are they going to sue you, probably not. Nobody with a brain is going to put the plans to a prized piece that is recognized by every one as theirs in a woodworking magazine. Everything is pretty generic, all that means is that if you do sell, you stand a better chance in court. Most of the final products are just copies or a variation of another persons work anyways and they have no rights to them either. The plan as its printed in the magazine is however protected, you can't print off copies and sell them.

Don

[bois]

In general, I just don't build anyone else's designs. I did do a modification of a sideboard plan that came from a woodworking mag once, but it was a very generic design that dates back hundreds of years. I often get people sending me pictures they saw from catalogs asking if I could reproduce the design, and I always decline. I really don't have any fear that the catalog company is going to find out and come after me but the practice would ultimately just commoditize my labor. Would you go to an artist and ask them to do a replica of someone else's painting? Or as an artist would you do it?

[Dave H]

If you bought a woodworking plan off the net, or out of a mag it seems to me that you've paid for that idea. As long as you don't represent the idea as your own or sell the plans, you can IMO maker as many copies of that piece as you wish. But really how many of us build a project to the plans, I useually see a theme that I like in a mag, or a piece of furniture that I like and adapt that to my own needs, or space so wouldn't that be partially my own creation. If you were writeing a novel and copied another auther's work verbatumn that would be plagerism pure and simple, but if you copied his style of writeing and adapted that to your own plot would you have to pay that auther a royalty. If you copied a painting and sold it as the original that would be forgery, but if adapted another painters style to your own creation what, or who do you owe? I think you should give credit to what inspired you, but if you've purchased the plans that inspired you, than how could anyone say how many times you can use this idea, or limit you to only giving this piece away(and not turning a profit). If I built Maloof rocker, and sold it as a Maloof rocker that would be wrong, on the other side if I built the rocker and sold it as my interpitation of a Maloof rocker IMO I wouldn't owe anyone anything my work was not misrepresented. The magazines sell you the inspiration that is inside the pages, you owe them the credit for the inspiration, but IMO they have already been paid do what you want.